I currently drive a mid 2000s Ford truck, which runs great and meets my needs, but lately I got interested in minivans/people carriers. I pretty quickly realized that newer vehicles seem to not just record, but export a lot of driving data.
The minivan market is small. There are really only 4-5 available and every single one sends telemetry data from the car and makes it hard/impossible to opt out of selling your data. Additionally, without pretty extensive work there is no means of physically disabling the telemetry, which forces you to trust they'll honor your opt out request (vs re-enabling it with some update).
I'm clearly in the vast minority on this, but it's so frustrating that there are no options beyond buying and installing a third-party bypass to disable this type of tracking. Worse, I'm aware that the absence of data is data itself. Is my insurance going raise my rates because my vehicle won't provide telemetry for them to buy?
Ford until recently sold a minivan that was ugly as sin (looked like an '87 Vanagon) because it was a panel van with seats added. They are popular with the campervan community.
As it was essentially a commercial vehicle meant for upfitters turning them into work vans for electricians and plumbers, it would probably be easiest of all to disable telemetry.
From what I can find, permanently disabling FordPass at the hardware level is as simple as unplugging the cell modem or pulling its fuse.
What I hate about this is that there is a minimal amount of connectivity that I would actually want. If there was a bad crash and I'm incapacitated, I would want emergency services to be called. But I want basically nothing else. Well unless you count an FM radio 'connectivity' I guess. I hate the coercive tactics so many modern tech devices use.
I have the Ford Transit Connect "Wagon". It's a 2016 model with no internet connectivity. It can fit a double mattress in the back and is tall enough to sit up on the bed, unlike nearly every SUV. I cannot recommend it enough for an everyday vehicle that doubles as a camper.
Of course, Ford discontinued this model in North America because their margins are better on trucks and SUVs.
As for the aesthetics, we really like it. It's certainly a darn sight better looking than a truck or SUV, which are all aggressive-looking pedestrian killers.
If you don't mind used, the Ford Transit Connect Wagon is an excellent option for an everyday vehicle that doubles as a camper. We have one and love it. It fits a double mattress with plenty of headroom room to sit up in bed. Ford discontinued it in 2023, hence the used requirement, but I believe you can turn off the internet connectivity on that model. We have a 2016 model (still going strong after 150,000km!) which has no internet connectivity, thankfully.
That is interesting that they fail safe and don't just brick the car though. Maybe you can still go with a newer car but just wrap the antennae in foil or maybe just unplug it.
Spoofing is all well and fine, but you can do more. Put as much bandwidth through that modem as possible. Those connections are meant for light data telemetry and their carrier agreement probably has caps. All the better and more expensive for them if they don't.
I tried using an older version of that program, and it was especially annoying because it only worked if you let it monitor and phone home continuously, not just while driving. If the app couldn't steal your information often enough, you were disqualified from the program, stating that it assumed you were hiding some driving activity.
if an owner decides they are uncomfortable with the data sharing described within them, they are faced with (arguably) unfair choices:
- 01 accept the agreements regardless of their concerns
- 02 stop using their car's connected-vehicle features - which includes remote start, the app, and other very useful features
- 03 stop using the vehicle entirely
Easy, I take #2. Is that it? This whole time I thought the article was talking about telemetry the car sends regardless.
I have essentially gone with option 2 in my Audi A3. Every time I turn the car on, it puts up a dialog that warns me that I've made the terrible, terrible decision to not allow remote data and forces me to say, "no, do not turn it on for me now," before I can do anything else on the screen. Every, single, time.
This, but worse, happened with my inlaws when they purchased a new Lexus (IIRC, a 2025 RX350). It has whatever kind of built in navigation & traffic feature but they wanted to use Android Auto. You can do that, but not until after you go through Lexus' vehicle/driver registration process to enable their built in system. If you don't, not only will neither AA nor CarPlay work, but if you try to use the built in nav it will fail with a superimposed modal after a couple of minutes to nag you into creating an account.
Disappointing but not surprising. Those touchscreen interfaces are usually full of nags. I liked the Versa I rented recently cause its "low-end" radio system was the only thing that let me listen to the damn radio without jumping through hoops. Toyota's is an L even though their cars are better otherwise.
I long for a future in which we can do what we did 20 years ago, when we just had double-DIN radio sockets in the dash so we could just choose, buy, and upgrade the car's stereo and touchscreen/phone interface at will.
I've thought about what I can possibly do if I ever need to buy a modern car. Bring my own cell phone tower spoofer? Threaten to not buy the car if they don't disconnect the antennas first?
It's good that these things are starting to catch the public's interest. Gamers' Nexus' exposé on LG TVs. The lawsuits against car manufacturers for selling driving data (indirectly) to insurance companies. The pushback against Flock. I wonder what else is needed to actually move the needle globally.
I see a good sign in that Gen Alpha seems to find using disconnected devices to be trendy. I hope it's a trend that stays long term.
> As one notable exception, Honda improved its data collection practices to prevent sending precise geolocation to a third party associated with user tracking.
I already like Honda and own models before they were connected to the cell network. But they are still not 100% there for current models:
> Amplitude received from HondaLink: VIN, Location. Cross-context tracking: Amplitude received the VIN plus Location from HondaLink — an unresettable identifier tied directly to other personal data.
They are so close they should say "fuck it, we're going to be different, we'll disable all the crap" and then market the heck out of it.
A “disable spying in just a few taps” approach (“your data, your choice” it’s just opt-out) would catch my attention and they could still sell 90% of everyone’s data since people don’t touch defaults.
Mine got an update with service recently. It now nags me about my opt out every time I start it. Luckily, I don’t have to dismiss it manually, it goes away on its own. Before the update, however, I was never reminded it was disabled.
The ongoing theme of all these responses was shifting the blame to the consumer.
As expected. I think consumers also need to push back on these practices, but the problem is, majority of consumers are tech savy but not privacy savy.
It looks like lobbying for increased consumer protection laws. Either you put on a suit and talk to politicians, or you work with and donate to groups that do.
Mee, too. And that's why I've made my peace with the idea of never again buying a new car. They're all garbage quality, outrageously expensive, and effectively unrepairable, anyway, so it's not a big loss. Probably most cars and trucks older than about 2018 are safe, I figure...
In many places in Europe, older cars are not viable on account of emissions legislation. So, if you want to drive with an older car, you will have to pay a pretty large daily fee to do so. This is done in the name of pollution.
I would expect this legislative approach will be rolled everywhere.
Interesting and thank you! Just like I'd like a "dumb" tv that I could just plug a Linux machine running Kodi into, I'd like a car that was 100% free from smart features, yet gave me the hooks to power any of the systems with my own software/hardware.
The closest thing is just any old basic obdii and that's it ICE car, where you rip out the oem radio and now have your power taps to do all sorts of fun hacker projects within that new found standard sized void in the dash.
If you buy a completely option-free $24,950 truck, there is no telematics/surveillance in their vehicle.
Which also means there's no remote app features that people enjoy.
The spirit of the vehicle is you can option out just about anything and DIY-it; very, very few "from the factory" options, but dozens upon dozens of DIY accessories from the factory.
The current description for the module on their website:
> A plug-and-play solution that acts as a cellular bridge between your smartphone and your Slate vehicle, enabling features like remote access and battery pre-conditioning.
It's not clear to anyone exactly what features the module has to enable the above, or if it does more than all that.
Once the thing actually ships, there'll be manuals, and there'll be people hacking it to find out exactly what it both does and doesn't do.
And since it's a DIY addition, if you later become uncomfortable with what you added to your vehicle, you can remove it!
I do enjoy watching my friend remote start his Colorado through the app, it only takes 30 seconds for the app to load and sign in, and then he presses a button that used to be on the key itself.
They say their vehicles have no modem by default, only leaving it as an option for fleet users. They also have no infotainment system to contain any sort of camera or microphone.
IIRC, they don't have a cellular radio in the vehicle (or even a FM radio). All the connectivity is done via Bluetooth with a mobile app.
It's been a while since I read up on them and things might have changed, but I have a lot respect for what they're doing. Full embracing right to repair and customer privacy when the entire industry is moving at lightning speed in the opposite direction.
Aren't their companies that are doing their telemetry over bluetooth bridge to phone' internet? Not saying slate necessarily does, but it's certainly an available exfil surface, especially if there's a 'manage your slate vehicle' app.
Look at the options on the table for you: Either do nothing and buy new cars, or buy an older car and maintain it for the rest of your life. There is no option C, as you note.
DMCA needs to be repealed or at least radically changed. Currently it's used as a cudgel by manufacturers to prevent customers from modifying the software in the stuff they buy. Legislation that requires vendors to provide documentation and stuff like "right to repair" would also go a long way.
Manufacturers laugh in the face of right to repair laws. They have no teeth.
So you can buy repair manual access for 1-3 days or on a subscription. You don’t get car software updates. You don’t get the diagnostic interface documentation. It’s a joke.
Not only is it an initial-expectations issue, but if they spy on you anyway there's no real punishment, so they are incentivize to cut corners—or simply cheat.
Hope to see a new market for disabling telemetry and phonehome features from cars. It should be legal to do so, if you own the car I suppose. I'm thinking that rigth now few pople even know how much spying their new car does to them but this will change and as awareness grows more and more people will want to do it.
Mm, I don’t really care about that, at least assuming it can partially-counterintuitively lower the manufacturing cost of a car by a penny or two.
Computer chips [used to?] end up getting nerfed and it saves resources/saves us all money. I can get over it, even though normally “the principle of the thing“ is a really big deal for me.
OK it does stink for the used car market actually.
Part of the problem is it just gets shoved into a model without enough data support. So I hit the gas hard merging onto the freeway? Of course; your brakes are much more powerful than your throttle if you need to take evasive action, and merging onto the freeway at 50mph is dangerous. The model just sees that you like keeping your foot on the gas from time to time. To keep your rates low you have to drive more dangerously, and that's not the sort of incentive structure I like to participate in.
You generally don't need to hit the gas hard to merge onto a freeway, you need to accelerate evenly on the ramp and be at 65-70 by the time you get to the merge point, being aware of traffic and where the gap is that you're going to merge into, and hitting it.
And occasionally having to hit the gas or brake hard is not going to raise your rate. They look for more of a pattern than that. If you're always braking hard and then accellerating hard, surging and changing lanes, consistently speeding, etc. that's going to be the trigger and what do you know, that's also the kind of driving that causes crashes.
I'm sure that will go about as well as protecting the privacy of individuals in the face of "but the CHILDREN!" age verification.
In-vehicle monitoring allows car manufacturers to remind the user to buckle up, keep their eyes on the road, stay off their phones, remind them to take breaks, turn the radio down in tense traffic, remind the driver to take a breath based on increased heart rate to minimize road rage, etc.
Heck, we could really reduce lack of seatbelt related injuries and deaths if we could eliminate the 'drive' function while seatbelts are not properly worn (which we can now check with our AI cameras )
I don't know if it's required yet by law, but some cars in the US do as well. My F150 will nag me if it thinks I'm not looking at the road for too long.
What are you some kind of anti-kids-being-able-to-roam nut?
Huge and tall vehicles and distracted and drunk drivers have made prisoners of anyone not in a car in much of the USA. Loss of freedom for people in cars is an acceptable price to regain freedom for people outside of cars.
Maybe drivers will stop distracted driving and be responsible with their freedom when the camera shows them looking at their phone while they mow down a pedestrian or bicyclist and they are charged with manslaughter.
May be relevant: noticed a new car dealer today, entered to inquire. Full "gadgety" monsters, pointless bothersome tech just for any-tech thirsty customers.
Salesman told me that it does not work without a smartphone.
And that it requires the dealer - the vehicle is a still statue without a whole infrastructure behind it to let it work (must be network connected and exchanging with some servers in China, he said - I do not know to which extent; the company greenlights the links to your other gear, and without that the car will not work... Things like that).
While the researchers noted Tesla as having privacy options that can be enabled in the car’s settings, they didn’t seem to test how this changes the # of ATA results. Would have been interesting to see how enabling privacy features changes things.
This was taken while the data privacy option was enabled. An employee going against policy and sharing it in slack for non-work related reasons does not change whether or not the toggle actually stops x camera from sending data back to the mothership.
I was gifted a 90's ford pickup from a family member and plan to get caught up on maintenance and keep it forever. It runs fine and has been a good project. No telemetry and easy to work on.
Try replacing the power steering pump or the thermostat...
Probably easier than any new car, but dang they made some odd design choices when they laid out that engine. Or try pulling the oil filter from a 302 with 4WD.
There are some other fun ones, too. I had an F150 in 2014 with the ecoboost 3.5, and the oil filter was directly above the control arm. So they put in a deflector over that to keep it from just running onto the arm itself. Still really messy and inconvenient.
Traded that truck for a Lightning, now I haven't really thought about the inconvenient design decisions around oil filters in a while.
This kind of automatic telemetry pisses me off, but disabling it is pointless since I'm driving around with my cellphone literally 100% of the time, and it collects and sells all the same data.
When I buy an EV, one of the first things I intend to do is disable or block the chips using Wi-Fi and/or cellular from broadcasting further. If that means a faraday shield around the computers in question, so be it.
Everything I need can be handled via CarPlay or physical dials/buttons in the vehicle. All this surveillance - on post-COVID priced vehicles no less, averaging ~$50k - is absurd, and I refuse to engage with it.
Thankfully for some, Subaru refused to comply with right to repair laws in some American states without disabling its Starlink/MySubaru system. So you get auto-opted out in those states.
So except for Tesla, which sends lots of telemetry regardless, other manufacturers send little if you don't use their companion apps. The companion apps already seemed excessive to me; even more reason to kick them to the curb.
I don't trust any of my devices anymore (including/especially my car). At the very least I figure that they're spying on me. In the most extreme cases, such as Israel's terrorist pager attack, they may even kill you.
I wonder if this is going to create a market for older tech/vehicles that were made prior to ease-of-malware integration? I imagine some sort of cyberpunk future where people are scouring landfills for old 16-bit video game console chips that haven't been backdoored.
I feel seen. I used to think rms was just a crank, but maybe he was right all along: I increasingly treat any closed-source software (and even some open-source--vscode for instance) as hostile and untrusted.
Wouldn't be surprised if in a few decades you see the ultra elite start favoring older maybe early 2010s at most cars. The risk surface of a modern car is astounding. I mean cellular connection and drive by wire, screw planting a car bomb, you just steer it off a cliff from your arm chair halfway across the world and it looks like an honest accident to boot. The old cars on the other hand are airgapped. You actually need physical access to sabotage them. Risk surface is so much lower.
>Our findings underscore the need for continued measurement and scrutiny of the connected vehicle ecosystem.
The need is for people to have at least half a brain, and it's not happening. Almost all privacy conversations I've ever had with people ended with "so what".
-Companies with interests contrary to your own will know X, Y and Z about you.
They are like smartphones on wheels because they have a cellular modem, not because you can control them. And it's likely the user paid for the subscription when they bought the car, and with every scheduled maintenance.
It doesn't make business sense for any company to pay for the hardware they use to spy if they can avoid it.
The minivan market is small. There are really only 4-5 available and every single one sends telemetry data from the car and makes it hard/impossible to opt out of selling your data. Additionally, without pretty extensive work there is no means of physically disabling the telemetry, which forces you to trust they'll honor your opt out request (vs re-enabling it with some update).
I'm clearly in the vast minority on this, but it's so frustrating that there are no options beyond buying and installing a third-party bypass to disable this type of tracking. Worse, I'm aware that the absence of data is data itself. Is my insurance going raise my rates because my vehicle won't provide telemetry for them to buy?
As it was essentially a commercial vehicle meant for upfitters turning them into work vans for electricians and plumbers, it would probably be easiest of all to disable telemetry.
From what I can find, permanently disabling FordPass at the hardware level is as simple as unplugging the cell modem or pulling its fuse.
Of course, Ford discontinued this model in North America because their margins are better on trucks and SUVs.
As for the aesthetics, we really like it. It's certainly a darn sight better looking than a truck or SUV, which are all aggressive-looking pedestrian killers.
It's reminiscent of a time when vans were vans — but it shares most of its parts with the Focus so should be relatively easy to maintain and repair.
Hopefully not the transmission.
oh that is endless.. if you are aware enough to do something about telemetry IMHO do that and don't obsess about loose ends.
It’s foolish to be afraid of nonexistent threats.
They will do it and some sneering POS in the comments will defend the practice.
The Burrow, Franz Kafka
Thanks, I hate it.
If you do not agree to this monitoring, they will not insure you.
also, full self driving (or autosteer) both require the cabin camera to be enabled and to monitor you.
One example: if you don’t get it from State Farm, you can pay 30% more in insurance costs.
https://www.statefarm.com/insurance/auto/discounts/drive-saf...
I've thought about what I can possibly do if I ever need to buy a modern car. Bring my own cell phone tower spoofer? Threaten to not buy the car if they don't disconnect the antennas first?
It's good that these things are starting to catch the public's interest. Gamers' Nexus' exposé on LG TVs. The lawsuits against car manufacturers for selling driving data (indirectly) to insurance companies. The pushback against Flock. I wonder what else is needed to actually move the needle globally.
I see a good sign in that Gen Alpha seems to find using disconnected devices to be trendy. I hope it's a trend that stays long term.
I know what my next car will be.
> Amplitude received from HondaLink: VIN, Location. Cross-context tracking: Amplitude received the VIN plus Location from HondaLink — an unresettable identifier tied directly to other personal data.
They are so close they should say "fuck it, we're going to be different, we'll disable all the crap" and then market the heck out of it.
A “disable spying in just a few taps” approach (“your data, your choice” it’s just opt-out) would catch my attention and they could still sell 90% of everyone’s data since people don’t touch defaults.
As expected. I think consumers also need to push back on these practices, but the problem is, majority of consumers are tech savy but not privacy savy.
I would expect this legislative approach will be rolled everywhere.
I hate it, fwiw.
If you buy a completely option-free $24,950 truck, there is no telematics/surveillance in their vehicle.
Which also means there's no remote app features that people enjoy.
The spirit of the vehicle is you can option out just about anything and DIY-it; very, very few "from the factory" options, but dozens upon dozens of DIY accessories from the factory.
Including a $275 telematics module - https://www.slate.auto/en/store/ACCIT010 - Which enables remote app features.
The current description for the module on their website:
> A plug-and-play solution that acts as a cellular bridge between your smartphone and your Slate vehicle, enabling features like remote access and battery pre-conditioning.
It's not clear to anyone exactly what features the module has to enable the above, or if it does more than all that.
Once the thing actually ships, there'll be manuals, and there'll be people hacking it to find out exactly what it both does and doesn't do.
And since it's a DIY addition, if you later become uncomfortable with what you added to your vehicle, you can remove it!
I do enjoy watching my friend remote start his Colorado through the app, it only takes 30 seconds for the app to load and sign in, and then he presses a button that used to be on the key itself.
It's been a while since I read up on them and things might have changed, but I have a lot respect for what they're doing. Full embracing right to repair and customer privacy when the entire industry is moving at lightning speed in the opposite direction.
So you can buy repair manual access for 1-3 days or on a subscription. You don’t get car software updates. You don’t get the diagnostic interface documentation. It’s a joke.
Two wheels and some impressive leg muscles !
The market is kind of free, but some parts have more freedom than others.
Wait...
and then there’s “he’s driving in a way we don’t like, let’s make him pay more for his insurance” data.
Computer chips [used to?] end up getting nerfed and it saves resources/saves us all money. I can get over it, even though normally “the principle of the thing“ is a really big deal for me.
OK it does stink for the used car market actually.
Insurance company profits are not a valid reason to implement pervasive surveillance, especially given all the potential for abuse of this data.
And occasionally having to hit the gas or brake hard is not going to raise your rate. They look for more of a pattern than that. If you're always braking hard and then accellerating hard, surging and changing lanes, consistently speeding, etc. that's going to be the trigger and what do you know, that's also the kind of driving that causes crashes.
In-vehicle monitoring allows car manufacturers to remind the user to buckle up, keep their eyes on the road, stay off their phones, remind them to take breaks, turn the radio down in tense traffic, remind the driver to take a breath based on increased heart rate to minimize road rage, etc.
Heck, we could really reduce lack of seatbelt related injuries and deaths if we could eliminate the 'drive' function while seatbelts are not properly worn (which we can now check with our AI cameras )
What are you some kind of anti-safe-driving nut?
What are you some kind of anti-kids-being-able-to-roam nut?
Huge and tall vehicles and distracted and drunk drivers have made prisoners of anyone not in a car in much of the USA. Loss of freedom for people in cars is an acceptable price to regain freedom for people outside of cars.
Maybe drivers will stop distracted driving and be responsible with their freedom when the camera shows them looking at their phone while they mow down a pedestrian or bicyclist and they are charged with manslaughter.
sadly, politicians are very happy about the centralization of power... they are the same team with the corporations.
Not to hate on your experience! They surely are reliable though.
Salesman told me that it does not work without a smartphone.
And that it requires the dealer - the vehicle is a still statue without a whole infrastructure behind it to let it work (must be network connected and exchanging with some servers in China, he said - I do not know to which extent; the company greenlights the links to your other gear, and without that the car will not work... Things like that).
https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-workers-shared-sens...
Probably easier than any new car, but dang they made some odd design choices when they laid out that engine. Or try pulling the oil filter from a 302 with 4WD.
Traded that truck for a Lightning, now I haven't really thought about the inconvenient design decisions around oil filters in a while.
what is ATA? what do they collect?
EDIT: Advertiser/Tracker/Analytics
Everything I need can be handled via CarPlay or physical dials/buttons in the vehicle. All this surveillance - on post-COVID priced vehicles no less, averaging ~$50k - is absurd, and I refuse to engage with it.
Take your car to a dealership for service and one of the first things their software does is download all of the data and phone it home
The article focuses on Chinese vehicles, but caution should be exercised with all vehicles.
I wonder if this is going to create a market for older tech/vehicles that were made prior to ease-of-malware integration? I imagine some sort of cyberpunk future where people are scouring landfills for old 16-bit video game console chips that haven't been backdoored.
The classic car (after)market is as big as ever.
Terrorist Israel’s pager attack.
I'd look at the Consumer Reports page if you don't want to read the paper linked in a sibling comment: https://www.consumerreports.org/electronics/personal-informa...
The need is for people to have at least half a brain, and it's not happening. Almost all privacy conversations I've ever had with people ended with "so what".
-Companies with interests contrary to your own will know X, Y and Z about you.
-So what?
Smartphones generally allow the user to disable cellular data ("mobile data")
If cars are "smartphones on wheels" then why not turn cellular data off
If that's not possible then perhaps cars are not "smartphones on wheels"
The ability to control whether cellular data is on or off is argubaly an important "feature" of the smartphone. Otherwise, why include it
It doesn't make business sense for any company to pay for the hardware they use to spy if they can avoid it.
2. there are in fact smartphones where you cannot disable cellular data